Thursday, October 16, 2008

Full Extent of the Ret Changes.

The extent of the hotfix nerfbat has just been communicated by Ghostcrawler.

As I stated yesterday, we are happy with Ret's PvE damage and sustatined damage in PvP, but were concerned that the burst damage in PvP could be too high. We discussed this for literally hours yesterday, which was certainly not the first time we have discussed the issue. Thus I hope these changes are not perceived as a knee-jerk reaction, but I am sure that will depend a great deal on which class you play. :)

Divine Storm -- the damage was changed from Holy to Physical. As you know, Holy damage is almost never mitigated and this talent could pack a lot into a very short time. This is a nerf to the ability's damage. This change is now active on Live.

Repentence -- this ability now lasts for only 6 seconds in PvP (down from 10). Obviously this is also a nerf. This change is also active on Live.

Art of War -- now affects all damage done by Judgements, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm (instead of critical strike damage). Net dps should be about the same but less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13.

Righteous Vengeance -- now applies a dot affect similar to Deep Wounds (instead of critical strike damage). This ends up being a significant buff to the ability to make up for the damage lost to Divine Storm, but is also less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13. This dot will also not break Repentence.

Glyph of Crusader Strike -- now reduces mana cost (instead of increased damage on stunned targets.) We thought paladins could stack too much damage vs. stunned targets. This change will be made before Nov 13.

We also fixed a bug with Seal and Judgement of Light that could sometimes result in too much healing.

In our tests, Retribution dps remains the same over longer periods of time, but they can't do quite so much damage in the initial few seconds of a PvP encounter.

I know Ret pallies feel a little picked on since we've made this mistake before of having them come out the gate too strong and then had to correct them. For that I do apologize. It's a difficult spec to balance since part of its design is to have large crits and stuns, which have obvious PvP implications. We are pretty confident this will not nerf pallies into the ground as I facetiously promised yesterday, but if we overdid it, we'll be happy to back off some of the changes.

On the other hand, maybe we'll see fewer BGs with 20 paladins on the opposing side and can get some reasonable feedback on all the other classes in the game.


A little more on the changes to Art of War and Righteous Fury (from the same thread)

Art of War was NOT majorly buffed. The damage should remain the same over time, but fewer gigantic crits. It will be something like +4 / 8% damage (instead of +10 / 20% crit), which should be the same overall assuming a crit rate of around 40%.

Righteous Vengeance was majorly buffed to make up for the Divine Storm nerf. It should end up at something like 10% of the crit damage each tick for 4 ticks of 2 seconds each (+40% and 8 sec total).

So basically, AoW will not boost crit damage as signficantly but overall damage for the affected abilities should remain the same. Righteous Vengeance though... if it rolls it's an extremely nasty talent. Nasty in a good way.

The change to Divine Storm is a shame because it fits in so well to the Paladin mold. And it was clearly better than Whirlwind. Now, though it's still a very nice talent, it's still a little disappointing. Giving it a minor coeff like CS would be nice.

I'm still a little surprised that Divine Shield isn't going to be looked at. Still, perhaps given the number of nerfs it undergone over the years another one would feel they've gone a little too far. If there are any further changes I'd expect that skill to be the first one looked at.

EDIT: I just want to be clear. Nothing we've seen thus far will make me stop playing my Paladin in Wrath, nor discourage me from speccing Ret at this time. For the full impact we are all going to have to wait for a little while and see what we're like at 80, only then will we be equipped to make a full Judgement.


Anonymous 16/10/2008, 18:15  

Having specced ret since 3.02 came out, I would just like to say that I have never had mana issues. Maybe thats what they intended, maybe not. But a glyph that reduces mana cost of CS is laughably irrelevant to me. I knew the changes were coming, I did feel a little OP, but change our glyphs to something worthwhile.

NightKnight 16/10/2008, 18:17  

Thanks for the blue post Zebra. Those changes arent really that bad overall. The way that we can mitigate the changes they made is by stacking a bit more Crit than Strength. Pick up the Darkmoon Faire Trinket that stacks Crit and you'll be g2g! I am seriously thinking about picking that trinket up for leveling as it will substantially raise my damage over time. I'm glad that they worked out the issue of sustained damage though. This will be better for us over time and in long boss fights. I noticed a problem when our guild did a fun run of Kara on tuesday to try out our new talents that I was in fact "too bursty" as they put it. I probably died about 5-10 times just from gaining too much initial agro. Yes its a debuff in pvp, but its a definite plus from a Pve standpoint. I say props to Ghostcrawler! If you've seen my other posts, from my perspective, Ghostcrawler has been all about keeping paladins dps where it was. The repentance debuff is fine with me really. I typically use it to get a quick heal off anyways, then it breaks as soon as you do damage. Most of the time your opponent will probably trinket out of it too :D.

Unknown 16/10/2008, 22:30  

With the reduction to Judgements of Light and Wisdom by 50%, and the nerfage to DS, I really don't see a reason to stay Ret. Prot is actually more viable now.

What really pisses me off is that folks QQ and we are nerfed via hotfixes, while the things that are promised to us to compensate will come "in the future" Yeah, fat F*ing chance. We'll see that shit in patch 3.6.

You have to realize that there is another hidden nerf here. With changing DS to physical damage, it also looses any benefit from anything that boosts Holy damage. So there is a greater nerf here.

As soon as I can gather more prot gear, it's back to prot for me. Screw ret.

Anonymous 17/10/2008, 01:03  

Our Judgement of the Wise is still the same right?

if so, i'm cool. As long as i don't run out of mana like before the patch, i'm cool.


Chrom 17/10/2008, 02:52  

I think someone just Sh#t in karl"s cornflakes

Dradis 17/10/2008, 05:14  

I honestly haven't noticed a huge difference in the feel of Ret. I was sitting @ 38% of damage done, and 1031dps over the course of a Heroic Sethekk Halls run I did before coming to work. I haven't done any PvP, but Ret is still a bunch of fun, and mana is not an issue.

There are some more nerfs incoming per the blue post, but I don't think it will be a big deal. We will have to wait and see what happens at 80 though.

Tom 17/10/2008, 21:07  

the problem is they 'hotfixed' the nerf to divine storm already... but they're not making the buff changes until the next patch.


Dradis 18/10/2008, 00:11  


Is there a blue post stating that? I looked around real quick and didn't see it. Or are you referring to the fact that the tool tip has not changed? Because they have been real slow at getting our tooltips changed. I guess the only to know for sure is to get silenced. If we can use DS then the hotfix is still in. If not, then indeed, they have gone back on it for now.

Suicidal Zebra 18/10/2008, 00:44  

Divine Storm has been Hotfixed to be physical damage. If you look in your combat log when you use the ability it will come up as the 'Physical' damage type. This was an easy fix they could perform server-side, so long as they didn't change DS's tooltip.

The changes to Righteous Vengeance to mitigate the loss of DPS from the DS nerf won't be in till the patch before Wrath's launch (i.e. some time before Nov 13th.). The reasoning behind this is because it deals with more than just %ages and requires a new buff icon, tooltip and other UI effects to work in-game.

It sucks, but to a certain extent Blizzards hands are tied by the way the game is designed. I'm not worried, so long as it reliably more than makes up for the shortfall and is properly tested.

Anonymous 20/10/2008, 13:31  

Being a ret pally the whole time, I've found the changes good. (No more going AFK waiting for something to die).

I haven't seen anyone bring this up so here goes.

Blizz said they wanted Ret to be able to tank if called upon (I assume 5 man or OT in a crunch). With the change of DS to physical it no longer gets the bonus threat from Righteous Fury. Does anyone think this will have an effect upon agro?

Chrom 20/10/2008, 17:03  

I have never had issues with holding aggro on mobs (P word: Shield, 2h tanking FTW) while specd Ret, and most of the time i dont even have Righteous Fury activated. Even before sheath of light (buff that converted AP to spellpower)this was not an issue. consecration, judging, scaling retribution aura and a halfway decent crit rate and you will not have issues holding aggro.

BTW, i am looking to get a decent DPS meter when i start downloading the updated addons. can anyone recommend one? and can anyone give me ballpark on what decent RET DPS should be at 70 post patch?

Anonymous 24/06/2009, 09:15  

Tkumsak- from Boulderfist here, current ret pallies benefit from strength, crit and attack power. Everyone knows that. Glyphs that reduce mana cost are a waste, I personally and still getting geared and use 2 pieces of titan forged pvp gear for pve, till I get better it will do. I pull 2400-2800 dps in heroics depending on how much scrambling you gotta do when you accidentally Holy Wrath and divine storm while the tank is still gathering agro. Current Glyphs that I find usefull, +10Judgment damage, Glypg of Seal of Blood, the mana you get with judgments is killer, I know this will be useless next patch though. Glyph of Divine Storm, +15 more damage, thanks. Been using Titansteel Destroyer since hitting 80, eventually i will get better. Minor glyphs are Lay on Hands, nice in raids to keep a tank up, healers will thank you, Blessing of Might, save g on reagents 30 minute buff, Sence Undead, +1% damage against undead, minor help.

Talents are 10 in prot for 5/5 greater strength, no brainer 1 str = 2.2 ap. And 5/5 Divinity, Aor of War and Bang! are great addons show buffs n cooldowns n when your Flash of Light is an instant cast it tells you, use Sacred Shield n the self flash will crit a hellova lot. I just switch gear for pvp I dont mess with the talents so its not so high in the prot tree like I see a lot of hardcore arena retardins. I do well in pvp and pve with this. PvP gear is half hatefull half titan forged, which is the same tier as Deadly. 700 resil and 3750 ap is ok. Have fun with your pallies, use the target dummies to find the rotation that does the most dps. Been Ret forever, love it.

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