Thursday, July 30, 2009

/HeadDesk

Oh, here's an interesting thread on the official forums discussing the SoV debuff change. I hope the discussion is detailed and productive.

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Nice, Ghostcrawlers responded.

Oh dear...

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oh dear...

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oh deary, deary me...


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10 comments:

2nd Nin 30/07/2009 08:55  

Lesson learned:

Blizzard does not know the game they publish, and refuses to admit it.

In 10-20 minutes I came up with a more balanced idea for Ret based on the three basic debuffs in the game (self, target, positional). Adding a huge cliff type ramp to Ret is poor form (especially given its minimum ramp up with both CS and DS proccing the seal was > 4.5s 2x melee [3x2] + CS + CS + DS).

Ghostcrawler and co always seem to make posts which indicate they know the game, yet their evidence is contrary to that (and he points out that one opinion is not speaking for the majority :)).

2nd Nin 30/07/2009 09:04  

Actually I suppose I should qualify:

Blizzard already nerfed burst by making Ret use SoV even with all abilities stacking it because they get no effective seal procs in the first "burst" period.

00:00 Melee + CS - 2 Dots
01:50 DS - 3 Dots
03:00 Judgement
03:20 Melee - 4 Dots
04:50 CS - 5 Dots
06:40 Melee + Seal
09:00 CS + Seal
09:60 Melee + Seal
10:50 DS + Seal
13:00 Judgement + Seal

You effectively pushed the ideal burst period back by 6:40s (massive time in PvP when people are complaining about dying within stuns of 3 GCDs). Prio in this case is given to stacking abilities rather than damage to build the stack (otherwise you swap DS and Judgement)

Now we have:


00:00 Melee + CS - 1 Dots
01:50 Judgement
03:00 DS
03:20 Melee - 2 Dots
04:50 CS - 5 Dots
06:00 Consecration
06:40 Melee - 3 Dots
07:50 Empty Slot / Exorcism proc?
09:00 CS + Seal
09:60 Melee - 4 Dots
10:50 Judgement
12.80 Melee - 5 Dots
13:00 DS + Seal

So best case scenario assuming 3.2 speed weapon is 12.80 seconds to get the buff up and running.

Worst bit is its getting compared to Scorch / Sunder which are linear increases, 1GCD = +1/5th of the total effect, Ret is 1 Swing timer for 0|| 100% of the effect. By being binary it causes massive problems.

Suicidal Zebra 30/07/2009 16:05  

Yep, it confused me that a 4-6 second ramp-up time in PvP wasn't plenty and for some reason it needs to be extended to 12 seconds assuming that everything works out perfectly. If they didn't want SoV to be used in PvP there are far more simple ways to do it, such adding the tag 'proc is not effective against players'.

In fact, was the 33% damage proc even that much of an issue? It's less than 70% that of SOB's proc and resiliance is getting a pretty big buff. Testers were probably finding the Seal useful in PvP because the Judgement hits like a freaking truck with 5 stacks of the debuff, and we all know that JoC is easier on the face than a newborn kitten.

I really hate to play the 'they don't understand the spec' card but it really seems like that's the case. Of course, reading the official forums there are quite a few players, Paladins and non-Paladins alike, who have a similar blind-spot when it comes to the spec. Perhaps we shouldn't expect better.

Dorgol 30/07/2009 19:39  

"If they didn't want SoV to be used in PvP there are far more simple ways to do it, such adding the tag 'proc is not effective against players'."

But that goes against the overall goal of abilities not working differently in PvP vs PvE. So they went with another option of just making it less useful for PvP.

I'm not saying Blizzard has done it the RIGHT way, just saying there's a reason they didn't do it YOUR way.

Suicidal Zebra 30/07/2009 20:01  

I am well aware that building in functional differences for abilities depending on whether it is PvP or PvE is something they want to get away from. Heck, we had that last patch with the Exorcism (for pretty much the whole of 3.1) and Vindication (the last month or two of 3.1) debacle. However the reasoning behind it was clear and logical: 'either we make the exception or we screw with PvE as well as PvP'. The idea is then that in time a more elegant solution can be constructed.

Cycle through to the 3.2 PTR. All indications are that 3.2 will be going live in a week. Constructing, implementing and testing an elegant solution to the problems presented by SoV which encompasses PvP and PvE in that time is impossible, leaving Blizzard with three stark choices:

1) Revert the change, make Ret overpowered in PvP and balanced in PvE (according to Blizzards own testing and criteria).

2) Keep the change, balancing Ret for PvP but causing particular issues for Ret in cutting edge PvE encounters.

3) Revert the change, and make SoV not work at all in PvP. Ret in PvP balances around SoC/SoR that have well understood mechanics easily hotfixed, Ret in PvE is balanced around SoV which is competitive with old SoB in almost every cutting edge encounter. Plan a more elegant solution for 3.2.1/3.3.

I don't like option three, I wish there was another one which would make everyone happy and the game more balanced because I'd take it in a heartbeat. Right now though it's probably the best option for the players of the game, even if it doesn't fit Blizzards long term ideology.

Firespirit 30/07/2009 21:16  

I was reading the EJ forums yesterday perusing to try to find the actual damage done by this change, and I came across some commenter that made a good point.

If the sole problem is PvP, then why not give us an ability in PvE situations to get the stacks up faster.

There were several posts that thought consecration was the way to do it. I don't think that is the way - we are back up to full damage within 6 or so seconds if we do it that method.

I think the answer lies in our vengeance ability.

Give us a skill - maybe a button press - so the next crusader strike consumes your vengeance stacks (which is limited to three) and gives you some other unspecified buff for 10 seconds.

On the next Successful crusader strike it will add stacks of the SoV dot equivalent to the amount of stacks of vengeance consumed.

I think this is an elegant solution, this allows us to carry over SOME dps to the next target, but sill preserves our ramp up time somewhat in PvE, and would require EXTREME skill in PvP (and be subject to dispells) to pull off effectively. That to me would push ret in the direction that the dev's want to go - ramp up time, skill, making ret more interesting to play.

BTW - Thanks for the linkage love Zebra!

Firespirit 30/07/2009 21:24  

Im sorry, I left out a part in the above comment.

If we use this new theoretical talent to move stacks from target to target it would need to overwrite the current stacks of SoV on the target.

Assuming there is 3 stacks of vengeance, moving over to another target is prety much going to give you a free auto attack from the swing timer, the adding the vengeance buffed stacks, youd start the fight at 4 stacks. That would put ramp up at 3 seconds (or so).

If it overwrote the stacks, it negates the first autoswing, giving you 3 stacks and making the ramp up time 6 seconds (or so).

2nd Nin 30/07/2009 22:29  

If you want an easy way to make us not use SoV in PvP:

Seal of Command: Deals 1% of weapon damage as holy damage, When judged all heals to the target are reduced to 0 for 3s.

We cannot seal twist effectively due to mana. All you need is a good gimmick on SoC to make it worthwhile, its not about damage its about control. SoV can deal as much damage as it wants provided it doesn't put us in "kills active healer range" then control is better. Being able to save judgement to stop healing for 2 GCDs is an awesome trick if we can pull it off. Its not hard to get solutions that are creative and aren't "15s to get going"...

Ferarro 30/07/2009 22:57  

*laughs*

That's the most beautiful picture I've seen on this subject.

Bravo. =)

Jonathan 31/07/2009 00:50  

Have to agree with Ferarro here, I laughed out loud at 1 am.

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